Talk:Traditions

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Assessment

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B - This article is considered a B-class article on the wiki quality scale

One Page for Unity, Traditions and Ascension Perks[edit]

I decided to make one page for now. Until we add a full table for Tradition and Ascension Perks, it should fit here well enough. And I do not know how to generate tables out of the gamefiles. Also having some trouble getting steam to download the DLC so I can see and verify those features. --The Founder (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2017 (CEST)

Adding template for tradition colors?[edit]

There's quite a few, so a hint of color on the names would help players sort through the table of Traditions. Alternatively one could color the background of the table cells. Zharmad (talk) 06:02, 8 April 2017 (CEST)

Reorganizing traditions[edit]

I believe the chart would be more readable if each tradition tree were broken out into its own section, with an image of the filled out tradition tree beside it. Should I go ahead and make the change? -GC13 (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2017 (CEST)

The table is not fully up to wiki style which, I'm afraid, isn't helping its readability. I made a small change to ease the problem for the mean time. If it won't be readable when finished then a split would be in order. ~ SolSys (talk) 23:39, 8 April 2017 (CEST)

The Tradition Cost Formula[edit]

I have been trying to make head and tails of the "Tradition cost" number. I asumed something like the basic math patterns, where a increasing number is added to the previous value. I noticed something while doing that: every 6th Value is a outlier. And you need 6 Tradition Points to finish a tradtion, wich seems not co-incidental. These are the numbers I found:

  • +17, +36, +48, +60, +69, +165
  • +94, +100, +108, +115, +122, +262

The 6th is more then twice as high as the 5th.

--The Founder (talk) 23:32, 8 April 2017 (CEST)


So common/defines/00_defines states the formula to be

## tradition cost = ( base_cost + ( ( cost_tradition * num_traditions )^traditions_exponential ) + cost_pop*num_pops ) * ( 1 + cost_planet*num_planets )
TRADITION_COST_TRADITION				= 6
TRADITION_COST_TRADITION_EXP			= 1.6

TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_COLONIES		= 0.25		# Each Planet adds +X% Tradition cost
TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_POPS			= 2			# Each Pop adds +X Tradition cost
TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_SLAVES			= 0.50		# Each Slave adds +X% to num pops mult
TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_SENTIENT_ROBOTS	= 1.00		# Each Sentient Robot adds +X% to num pops mult
TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_XENOS			= 1.00		# Each Xeno Pop adds +X% to num pops mult
TRADITION_COST_MULT_NUM_XENO_SLAVES		= 0.50		# Each Xeno Slave adds +X% to num pops mult

This would translate into a tradition cost term of (N*6)^1.6 where N is the number of already purchased traditions. Note however, that this formula gives the sequence (0, 17, 53, 101, 161, 230, 309, 395, 489, 591, 699 ), which does not match the found numbers in the main wiki text. So either the formula in this comment is erroneous, or there is some rounding that is not documented there, or we missed one or two numbers in the main wiki text.

--85.226.194.156 01:07, 9 April 2017 (CEST)

Name change[edit]

Since unity is not the main point of the article I'd suggest changing it into Traditions. ~ SolSys (talk) 10:28, 10 April 2017 (CEST)

Unity's sole purpose is to unlock Traditions. So for me at least they are one and the same. I kind of had to "invent" the concept of a Tradition point to make any describale sense of the Unity UI. It is hard to even figure out where Unity ends and Traditions start mechanic wise. Note that technically the base cost per perk can varry based on the Tradition, but that might only be there for modding support.
A Unity article would be on the stub side without Traditions and Ascension. And peole will propably see Unity (the resource) first.
Ascension Perks are just a logical expansion to Traditions.
I also added deep-redirects on Tradition/Traditions and Ascension Perks to the wiki, so it is findable by that either way.
--The Founder (talk) 12:00, 10 April 2017 (CEST)
Unity and traditions are indeed intertwined - the first [a resource] being used in the second [a mechanic]. The intro would be rewritten. There won't be a unity article - its a basic resource. ~ SolSys (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2017 (CEST)

Good effort with this page, but I agree with SolSys that the page shouldn't be called "Unity". I'd change it to "Traditions". The page would of course feature a brief intro to the Unity resource. I'd then add a second page for Ascensions. Would then remove the Unity link from the home page and replace it with a link to Traditions. Could also add a link to Ascensions --PaulMClem (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2017 (CEST)

Non-sentient robots count as POP[edit]

The article states that only sentient robots (i.e. Synths) increase the cost of unity. But, as I found in my Machinist game, Robots and droids seem to do so too. They count as "normal" citizens though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karimjebari (talk) 10:47, 16 April 2017 (CEST)

I noticed this too. But according to the defines file, that +1 should only apply for Sentient Robots and Xenos. There is a minor chance that the old bug appears, where a Robot (of any Tier) is considred a Xeno for the game mechanic - as I pointed out under Game Terms. As it happens, Sentient Robots and Xeno both cost +1. But the formula is quite confusing even with our compelte knowledge of the Values. --The Founder (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2017 (CEST)
The formula on the article has been adjusted to account for current known exiting oddities - this includes the xeno slave issues which are being counted twice [the 2nd time as "regular" slaves]. ~ SolSys (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2017 (CEST)

Perks Diagram[edit]

Hey all, I was looking for a diagram showing all Ascension Perks with their prerequisites to help me with decisions during my game, but I couldn’t find any, so I created one quickly. I wouldn’t know where it would fit best, if at all, nor do I have an account to upload it here. Please use it as you see fit: https://s12.postimg.org/dsuje9zx9/Stellaris_Ascension_Perks.gif --88.152.141.210 03:35, 28 April 2017 (CEST)

Merging Adoption and Finisher into Category[edit]

Upon closer inspection of the Files and the Formulas, it appears obviously that the "Start" and "Finisher" bonus of a Tradition Category are just normal Traditions themself. As the dual listing is breaking up html anchors, how about just moving start and finisher bonus into the tables? The Adoption bonus could used the Categories Description and use "none" as requirement. While the finisher had no desription and "Finisher" as requirement (to denote that you need all others to get this). Both of course have no Symbols. --The Founder (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2017 (CEST)

1.8 changes to Traditions[edit]

Looking into the Lifestream, they mentioned that both the effect, name and Description of Tradition Unlocks would varry based on certain Civics/Ethics (Hivemind, Faantic Purifier). For example, for Hivemind "Private Colony Ships" becomes "Growth Pods" (-10% food consumption). While "Pursiut of Profit" only changes Name and Description, but not effects. Mind you those are NOT actually new Traditions - the same unlock simply Display and Works differently.

I can see 3-4 variants (Normal, Hivemind, Fanatic Purifier, Devouring Swarm Hivemind) for any tradition. So, how will we be dealing with that in the Wiki? I know it is still a bit off, but we need to consider it. --The Founder (talk) 19:18, 15 June 2017 (CEST)

As you said this is still a bit off, but I'd prefer to go the default/neutral way; as, for example, province names are handled in EU4 - you can have dynamic province names [changes based on owner] or you can have static default names. ~ SolSys (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2017 (CEST)
Now we got some data on it. The Devs call it "Tradition Swap" (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/stellaris-dev-diary-76-hive-mind-improvements-tradition-swapping.1034124/). Unfortunately it is way beyond a simple Namechange as with Provinces. And as they are described, the current versions will remain the "baseline" Traditions. And the other will be "swapped in" based on conditions and weighting (like AI personality or Government). We just need a way to list the "possible swaps" under each Tradition Unlock. Internally Traditions will still becalled stuff like tr_prosperity_sct. So the basic structure will propably not change. --The Founder (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2017 (CEST)
I may have overly-simplified before - I'll try to clarify my intention. Traditions that only differ by flavor will remain "as is" [with a note]. The rest will be added where need be with any special requirement listed under the prerequisites column. ~ SolSys (talk) 21:23, 6 July 2017 (CEST)
Why not just add the new tradition trees (esp the machine intelligence trees) as their own traditions, And list prerequisites? Because we ARE getting new trees aswell. The smaller swaps are harder. But we can start with the new actual tradition trees first. There coulkd even be a section on "swaps" but it might get messy..Untrustedlife (talk)
Logical problem with "jsut adding trees":
  1. Trees will swap back the effects if conditions change. i.e., if you gain or loose Civics.
  2. I prefer to mirror the filestructure (and I have a good guess how it will look like). It has the advantage that you rarely need to rework anything afterwards because you can easily account for more swaps being added.
  3. It might often not even be compelte trees that are swapped out. So you would end up repeating 6/7th of the Information.
  4. Association for certain things like Factions becomes tricky. The Fanatic Purifier Swap for Diplomacy is as viable as Diplomacy itself. ::::Indeed the game has to go out of it's way to even detect that you are using the FanPury version of Diplomacy, not the normal one.
But thus far all we are doing is theorizing. It really depends on how extensive the swaps actually are, wich we can only truly see if we got the gamefiles in front of us.
--The Founder (talk) 12:21, 12 September 2017 (CEST)

Maybe making a exampel list under the new world might help? The only things that will be equal to all variants of a Tradition are the internal string (like tr_diplomacy_adopt) and the prequisites (has_tradition = tr_diplomacy_dynamic_ecomorphism; however they seem to be only named on the 2nd Tier of Traditions). Now the Symbol, Display Name, Description and effect are all able to swap out. And we propably have to go through every swap to figure out wich of those are different even in effect a swap might copy the effect this itteration of the game, but that has no reason to stay constant).

While I can see the appeal to "minimize the changes" (especially after writing it down now), this is likely to bite us in the butt. I want to at least think about a new design if the differences are too extreme.

ID Prerequisites Details
tr_diplomacy_adopt none
Tradition Effects Description Weight
Menu icon traditions.png Adopting Diplomacy
  • Influence.png −50% Diplomatic influence cost
  • Trust growth +33% Trust growth
The surest way to destroy your enemies is to make them your friends. 5
Adaptability +20% Habitability We will adapt to prosper everywhere. All planets will be ours 1; x10 if Hive Mind
tr_diplomacy_the_federation tr_diplomacy_adopt
Tradition Effects Description Weight
Tradition diplomacy dynamic ecomorphism.png Dynamic Ecomorphism Mod habitability.png +10% Habitability Diplomacy opens many doors through which information flows. Simply by studying the methods of others, we have learned new ways of adapting to alien environments. 5

The fact that the Prequistes and name are the only thing reasonably sortable means that the nested table can be redued to a primal table. Having the weight sortable is propably unessesary, as they will be ordered by weight in the file itself (after all there are only mutually exclusive on that one tradition string, rather then among all another). --The Founder (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2017 (CEST)

Intersting. My predictions about how it would be implemented in code was dead wrong, it appears. That indeed allows for a much simpler way of anotation:

tradition_swap = {
	name = tr_versatility_adopt
	inherit_effects = no
	inherit_icon = yes
	inherit_name = yes
	trigger = {
		has_authority = auth_machine_intelligence
	}
	modifier = {
		pop_robot_build_cost_mult = -0.10
	}
	weight = {
		factor = 1
	}
}

--The Founder (talk) 13:57, 22 September 2017 (CEST)

Split[edit]

With the expansion on traditions and seeing as the ascension paths section turned into a pseudo-event/strategy page I'm thinking of a split. The current options considered are [1] moving ascension paths back to the Population modification article or [2] moving ascension as a whole to its own article. My own preference leans towards the former, but I'd like to hear others as well. ~ SolSys (talk) 18:21, 26 September 2017 (CEST)

My preferences would be a own article. And I would be willing to do it too, while update any parts of it. Apparently there is a Ascension path Page already ut it seems only a redirect that does not appear in the Auto-complete Feature. Would propably allow some better linking to specific subsuctions like the Shroud. --The Founder (talk) 17:35, 29 October 2017 (CET)
I'm living it at the moment as is -- after the last clean-up, the situation turned up better. At the moment, only the ascension paths section remains to be taken care of and I'll try to take care of it after finishing some other projects. I'll postpone the decision till then. In any case, I'd like to avoid another "data dump" situation like it was previously - not only it looks bad, but it makes it hard for users to extract useful information at ease. ~ SolSys (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2017 (CET)

Rewrite[edit]

This page has been tagged as a {{Rewrite}}, the below issues have been found when the page is compared to the style guidelines

  1. Use of you/your: Please change to third person
  2. List: Reformat into prose (a listed ideas section is acceptable)
  3. Absence of links: Links missing or replaced by bold or italics which do not function
  4. Poor sectioning: Article should be broken up into easy to understand sections
  5. Use of a separating lines should be removed

Dauth (talk) 11:10, 5 November 2017 (CET)

Regarding Ascension Perks: Usage of "Ascension Perks picked >Num"[edit]

Pretty much every conversation and discussion I've had about ascension perks use the language of "1st perk, 2nd perk, 3rd perk, etc.". I get that saying "Ascension Perks picked >0" is functionally the same as "Ascension Perks already picked/taken/used: 1", but I'd like to see all of the references to "perks picked >Num". To me, it just reads in a nicer manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.7.184 (talk) 11:52, 16 December 2017‎ (CET)

I agree, but frankly all code should be removed from the page. Instead is should read "Have at least 3 ascension perks unlocked" or similar. Dauth (talk) 12:52, 16 December 2017 (CET)
I was busy with contest/EU4/work that I forgot I have not updated this section as of yet. I'll update the table for the mean time and the rest later on. In the future please remember to sign your comments with ~~~~. ~ SolSys (talk) 21:17, 17 December 2017 (CET)


Versatility[edit]

This page was massively improved by people who clearly have better idea about tradition swaps, but with my limited knowledge it seems that the Versatility tradition tree is a swap for the Adaptability/Diplomacy not Harmony/Synchronicity. Should I go ahead and move it or I am not seeing the whole picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.247.58.140 (talk) 21:33, 13 March 2018‎ (CEST)

No you're right, I made the mistake when grouping the Tradition trees. I'll fix it right away — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeSingeAffame (talk) 04:04, 14 March 2018‎ (CEST)
Moderator edit: Do NOT edit other users posts without proper reason again. ~ SolSys (talk) 21:17, 14 March 2018 (CET)

Grasp the void missing[edit]

It is missing grasp the void if someone wants to edit that in. Muramas (talk) 23:20, 15 October 2018 (CEST)

Tradition Cost (2.2.1)[edit]

Comments from 00_defines.lua:

  • TRADITION_COST_TRADITION = 8 # change this value if you want to increase all costs
  • TRADITION_COST_TRADITION_EXP = 1.700 # change this value if you want to increase costs at the end
  • TRADITION_COST_MULT_TRADITION_GROUP = 0.05 # each adopted group adds +X% to total cost
  • TRADITION_COST_RESOURCES = { "unity" } # Resource for tradition cost
  • TRADITION_COST_AMOUNTS = { 300 } # Tradition base cost
  • EMPIRE_SIZE_TRADITION_COST_PENALTY = 0.005 # Per empire size above base

The formula should be:

but that doesn't quite line up with in-game stats. 300 is the proper number for the first tradition, but it's slightly off for other values. It's still much closer than the previous formula. Note that to (almost) match in-game costs, the finisher of a tradition counts 2x.--EnderA (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2018 (CET)